Another thread about AI

[Eviance]

Originally Posted by cosyfiep

hm, this reminds me of a car problem I had a while back......sometimes it would just die for no reason (went to doctor appt....came out car dead, called hubby to come and jump it, 10 minutes later car starts without any problems....hubby wouldnt believe me until it happened to him.-----take it to repairman. 'uhm we cant repeat what you did, bring it back when it happens and then we will look at it'... ..geez thanks. and with that I have had 3 new batteries in my car in three years, you'd think that there is something a bit suspecious when the battery needs to be replaced every 12 months on a late '90s car!)

Totally off topic here, but check the altenator? >_>



I'm still confused about things that run when you don't touch them or use an AoE. I've made the example numerous times.. use the search function, I'm too tired to type it out =P

[dead man ivan]

One little thing to add is that how come Charr in Post-Searing can chase me even though I have two speed buffs(Charge+Sprint), the funny thing is that the character who was chasing me was a Monk class and no way could have kept up with me but there it was just behind my aggro bubble and smiting me as soon that skill recharged.
BTW, I was running a guildie from Ascalon to Yaks Bend and the other charrs in the group didnt chase me only this guy and it was wierd. The reason I mention this here is sometimes the permanent aggro can even lead to your death(which it did here ) Speed buffs also dont seem to break aggro.

P.S--:I am sorry if this has been said a million times before in the other forums

[Hand of Ruin]

Originally Posted by dead man ivan

One little thing to add is that how come Charr in Post-Searing can chase me even though I have two speed buffs(Charge+Sprint), the funny thing is that the character who was chasing me was a Monk class and no way could have kept up with me but there it was just behind my aggro bubble and smiting me as soon that skill recharged.
BTW, I was running a guildie from Ascalon to Yaks Bend and the other charrs in the group didnt chase me only this guy and it was wierd. The reason I mention this here is sometimes the permanent aggro can even lead to your death(which it did here ) Speed buffs also dont seem to break aggro.

P.S--:I am sorry if this has been said a million times before in the other forums

Apparantly monster have a built-in speed buff, which makes me wonder if this effect of perma-chasing was indeed intentional.

[Angelica]

Oh well if they wont fix this I will play another game that will give me my fun back!
Tired of wasting my time on a game that gives me only stress and frustration!

[Domon Kasho]

ok so was no my tank doing a chest run in nightfallen jahai and i ran in to grab a chest from the margonite assassin boss and slapped charge+sprint for quick getaway only to find that the boss alnoe was chasing me th rest of the mob didnt even aggro me so i ran trying to ditch him.....made it all the way to gate of pain with him behind me.i have a cool SS of the mist form shadow boss in talus chute following me to droks.bug i believe is the term for such a thing

[Illuminus]

Thanks for the reply Gaile.. although it doesn't always seen so, most of us are grateful for the feedback you give to the community.

I think the best way to present this issue would be to record a video of it and posting it at YouTube or the likes. Have they done so at GWOnline? (i dont have an account there )

[Orinn]

Specifics? There was a long thread HERE that has fallen into neglect. The issues are common, and just playing the game makes many specific mob behaviors obvious.

A recap, though:

Permanent Chase: Mobs will chase literally across the map

Permanent Aggro: When mobs stop chasing, but remember you and aggro from anywhere on the radar, usually FAR outside the "danger zone" of perception. Makes rezzing impossible from a near-wipe, even with rebirth.

Hidden Speed boosts: Mobs are able to catch up or stay just out of reach of players using speed boost skills, without using any speed-boost skills of their own.

Overzealous kiting: Casters, friend AND foe, decide to "kite" into another mob. Since heros and henchies don't always break off an attack when you call them (Devona is VERY good at ignoring flags when she's fighting,) the unexpected, unintended aggro, often accompanied by problems 1 and 2, cause players a lot of grief.

Other points:

Somehow, a patrol knows that the spirit they left half a mile behind was just attacked, and all come running back full-tilt.

Patrol groups (especially Kournan spotters, but other patrols do it too) seem to be able to simultaneously perceive everything along their patrol path. If they are patrolling, and you cross that patrol path, even WELL outside the aggro radius, you get attacked.

If your party has a MM, and minions trail behind, anything that meets them knows instantly whose minions they are and where to find said MM.

There are a lot of good points in that thread, and most of them were clear and concise. I recommend reading through it for yourself.

[ectospasm]

Originally Posted by dead man ivan

One little thing to add is that how come Charr in Post-Searing can chase me even though I have two speed buffs(Charge+Sprint), the funny thing is that the character who was chasing me was a Monk class and no way could have kept up with me but there it was just behind my aggro bubble and smiting me as soon that skill recharged.
BTW, I was running a guildie from Ascalon to Yaks Bend and the other charrs in the group didnt chase me only this guy and it was wierd. The reason I mention this here is sometimes the permanent aggro can even lead to your death(which it did here ) Speed buffs also dont seem to break aggro.

P.S--:I am sorry if this has been said a million times before in the other forums

I experienced this first hand right after that update. The shaman would chase me all over the map smiting me with bane signet until I either died or aggroed another group, then died. Sprint+charge wouldnt break him, you cant tell me thats intentional, its as broken as super speed warping coldfires in UW. Speaking of which, I also just finished several unsuccessful runs in uw with my 55 & my SS guildie. We did good til the 2nd group of smites and I died from too much aggro + reckless haste didnt help. SS attempts to run to break aggro from smites, he loses them but the coldfire got wind of him and chased him all the way back to the stairs that enter the smite chamber. First time Ive ever seen them come that far.

So, wasted 5k for entry fees & made about 1k back in white drops w/remains & dust. Goes back to another thread where I was talking about how worthless it is to seek FoW armor as a absolute must have, gold selling, bots and things associated with it. Anet are defeating the purpose of stopping farmers (most namely bot farmers) of selling gold with the huge frustrations and complications they implement into this game trying to combat current issues with extreme measures that ruins things for the average Joe. Yet being hypocrites with thier special event weekends that encourages farming.

[Vandal2k6]

Thanks a lot for understanding that it may take a bit of time, but for trusting that we will continue to analyze this.

Why not have a section on the GW official site with a mention of what the devs are currently upto? For example, if they have a meeting on something like this, post it. Then at least people won't have to post similar threads because we'd know they were looking into it.

I know you can't post everything they're doing, as some of it is to be kept secret. But things like this, and others that people feel need attention would be well worth posting about. It only take 5 minutes (if that) to post a quick statement saying devs are doing this or that. A bit like a dev blog.

Hows about it? You know it makes sense

[Ratchick]

Well I suspect these examples I am about to give are related to this perma-aggro problem or AI changes in the last few months, though I cannot say for certain. Hopefully someone will either be able to slap me upside the head and tell me why I'm failing so miserably or that they can at least help to track down if there is any issue or whether we need to "suck it up" because it's as expected.

I have all three chapters and I am currently trying to take my Factions Ele through Prophs (as a break from her NF journey). I've noticed the chase-for-miles-until-dead issue and the aggro-from-several-bubbles-away issue in several places:

Maguuma Jungle
1) Bloodstone Fen (mission), while doing the bonus, by the (?)devourers before vine plant and meeting area for the druids.
2) Kessex Peak (explorable), where Fog Nightmares wouldn't break aggro.
3) Sanctum Cay (mission), where undead (particularly horsemen) chase you from one end of the map to the other (and also in explorable areas such as Cursed Lands).

Crystal Desert
1) Sand Elementals in Vulture Drifts (explorable) which will approach you from several (2-3) aggro bubbles away, mainly if you've retreated but also occasionally before you have even attacked.
2) Forgotton and Enchanted mobs in Elona Reach (mission) and Dunes of Despair (mission) will chase you and will charge you if you retreat after a partial wipeout of the team even while out of the aggro bubble.
3) Losaru Centaurs in the north of Skyward Reach (explorable) between the portals from Salt Flats (explorable) and Destiny's Gorge (outpost) will approach from several aggro bubbles away if you retreat.

Although this may be only semi-related (if that) I feel I should comment upon the Dunes of Despair mission. It has actually got to the point, with the changes in AI, that I have become frustrated enough to have to stop playing my Ele trying to do the Dunes of Despair mission at the moment. The changes in AI mean that - in my experience, at least - it is pretty much impossible to outheal the damage in the 10 minute "defend" section. Once the seige wurms start pounding the Ghostly Hero, on top of the last waves of incoming mobs, two monks simply cannot keep up with the damage (especially not hench). The wurms no longer lose aggro and constantly attack the Ghost/platform (making the bonus damn nigh impossible because you can't leave him) and leaving a hench/hero healer simply results in dead healer, dead ghost and failed mission. Trying to get two human monks in a six person team is difficult, taking three results in it taking forever to kill anything, and you get swamped. Currently if you stay in the middle of the mission area, you are pounded by wurms constantly and if you step out of the AoE your ghost will die within a minute without healing.

I know that I am not the most 1337 player in the world, to say the least, (before anyone tells me how much I suck!) but the last time I saw this mission, it was very very different. The mission was doable even with just hench, the bonus was more than possible if you had a good team and the wurms were bearable. Now, with their crazy AC and hex/condition resistance alongside the recently increased range and maintained aggro, the mission is much harder than it used to be. I admit it's been a little while since I last went through there - my flatmate was surprised that I had unsuccessfully worked through a dozen different team layouts, various real player/hero/hench combos, trying to be able to balance damage and healing to finish this mission, as he also remembered it as being one of the easier ones. That was, until he sat down and watched the "new and improved" results. I know I'm not the most uber player in GW but I'm starting to feel really rather gimpy!

Question: Is this change in behaviour in the Dunes of Despair mission intended or was it an unexpected change as a result of modifications to mob AI?

ETA: I've also seen the issues with flag ignoring (though I have to admit, that was actually a first for me - perhaps I've just been lucky thus far that my heros have always actually listened) as well as utterly confused heroes that ping-ponged between the "main" flag and their own flag, or who would not run to my bloody corpse to heal/res me when I cancelled the flag holding them back to manage aggro while I (failed to) pull. Both of these occurred while attempting the bonus of the Bloodstone Fen mission and IMO that doesn't appear to be intended behaviour, but just buggy. A couple of times, they've also refused to return to me after cancelling a flag after a battle is finished, and I've had to set and cancel it again to get them to run over to me or follow me again.

I've seen the groups of mobs come running when a minion attacked a spirit that was at least 2.5 or 3 aggro bubbles away from them, and promptly pound the MM into the ground although he was on the other side of the radar at the time. While I could perhaps accept that they run to the spirit's prior spot and attack anything there (after all, I notice when a spirit drops) I find it hard to swallow that they now, automatically, that the spirit has been hit one time when they are half a radar away and hidden behind a hill/cliff - let alone that they know who hit/insta-killed it.

I must admit that I really dislike seeing constant complaints about GW on the whole - most of the time, I'm very happy with it, I love playing it and while I can think of changes I might like to see to make it even better, none of them (before now) have been this frustrating. I think, really, I've just been lucky so far, in that I've avoided most of the AI issues that most people have seen (generally I play ranged/casting profs, so I don't tend to Benny Hill) and my heros/hench have behaved impeccably when I've flagged them. But this weekend, it seems, my luck has run out. Either that, or I've only truly noticed the changes in the AI as a result of replaying older content again after mainly playing in NF since release.

I still love GW, don't get me wrong. I have no intention of stopping playing (though I may avoid ascending for a bit) but I really hope that this can be reproduced and fixed/tweaked where necessary. I used to work in QA and believe me it used to drive me up the wall when either we couldn't replicate issues customers reported, or when the devs couldn't reproduce issues that QA found. The phrase "But it works on my system..." was not a popular one - even if there's very little way to trace (let alone fix) an issue if you can't reproduce it in a test setting. I know it doesn't help me a whole lot when I'm stuck in the stupid desert, and probably doesn't help most people but if Gaile is reporting the complaints to the devs, and if the QA team are monitoring the relevant threads on various forums and seeing the same issues day after day, without being able to reproduce it, it's probably safe to say they're a bit fed up about it too (I know that I would be, if I were in their position).

Thank you, Gaile, for being on these forums and trying to do the best for everyone. I know most of what you hear is complaints, issues or bugs (including my very own post) and that can get wearing after a while - but people generally don't post so much when they're not having issues so often the positives get missed along the way.

[Effendi Westland]

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

We cannot make a fix when we cannot duplicate the situation, that's right!

Go to The Deep in Cantha... 2 nd room (after your reunite as a team of 12). With the slower moving area of effect. Aggro anything from this room and it will show the behaviour.

Made our run yesterday interesting as we moved in the room then left immediately then aggro-d too much (can some1 say Leroy :P) , all died except for one monk, he couldn't rebirth us as he was apparently aggro-ing the monsters from a whole compass map distance. Had to restart.

This time we lured them from room 1, didn't go into room 2 and then left. We all remembered that previously the monsters wouldn't be lured back into this room, but we guessed that with how the AI currently is it would be possible (as once you have aggro-d stuff you can aggro it from miles away) and guessed right..made that bit alot easier.

[Pillie]

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

No, people. I was talking about two separate changes that aroused outcry. I was not connecting the two. Please read before you make an assumption. I at no time suggested that the AoE skills were intended to stop the reported "endless chasing." .

Gaile, we were responding to the following post, not to yours. We werent suggesting that you had connected the two. that was done for us in a previous post:

Originally Posted by Phaern Majes

If you read, they have tested it and things seem to be "as intended". If you read further Gaile explains why the AOE changes were made. If you have groups following you forever just throw down an AOE. Although still doesn't help your situation when trying to rez.

So basically the way I read this is they wanted monsters to act like this. It is NOT a bug. Not every change = bug. And they provided a way break the aggro via AOE's.

Also, some additional information on my specific example. The other night I got angry and decided i was going to show the guile chasing me who's boss - with my Mo/A and a totem axe >.> couldnt land a hit on him. Every time I got within a few feet of him, he'd run away and stop, always just enough to maintain this few feet of distance between me and him. He also never attacked me, only used spells like strip enchantment. Surely that is bugged behaviour?

[ectospasm]

Originally Posted by Ratchick

Although this may be only semi-related (if that) I feel I should comment upon the Dunes of Despair mission. It has actually got to the point, with the changes in AI, that I have become frustrated enough to have to stop playing my Ele trying to do the Dunes of Despair mission at the moment. The changes in AI mean that - in my experience, at least - it is pretty much impossible to outheal the damage in the 10 minute "defend" section. Once the seige wurms start pounding the Ghostly Hero, on top of the last waves of incoming mobs, two monks simply cannot keep up with the damage (especially not hench). The wurms no longer lose aggro and constantly attack the Ghost/platform (making the bonus damn nigh impossible because you can't leave him) and leaving a hench/hero healer simply results in dead healer, dead ghost and failed mission. Trying to get two human monks in a six person team is difficult, taking three results in it taking forever to kill anything, and you get swamped. Currently if you stay in the middle of the mission area, you are pounded by wurms constantly and if you step out of the AoE your ghost will die within a minute without healing..

Holler at me (pm), Ill monk for you.
Its still doable, just did all the dessert missions twice a few days ago. Although they are much more difficult now. These missions used to be ran though alot by capable warriors or rangers. I tried to run one myself (Elona Reach) and couldnt do it, after 5 tries I gave up and we just played thru it. The mob by the 2nd shard to the left (usually spawns a ranger boss) I ran up there, grabbed the shard, had all my usual running skills on, hit sprint+charge, got crippled, purge conditions, took massive dmg, they chased me to the 2nd group on the way out, had 2 groups aggrod. They started wailing on me +degen and all the elementalists pounding away at me. I died before I could make it up the hill or across the bridge every time.

[Alka]

with that annoying non-relasing aggro this game is not fun anymore to me and i am sure i will not advertize this game to any of my friends from real-life
i enjoyed game for 9 months but i am start to hate it for now on

i am not willing to spend 5-6 hours in doa for some shity 10k xp

[Tydra]

Originally Posted by Vandal2k6

Why not have a section on the GW official site with a mention of what the devs are currently upto? For example, if they have a meeting on something like this, post it. Then at least people won't have to post similar threads because we'd know they were looking into it.

I know you can't post everything they're doing, as some of it is to be kept secret. But things like this, and others that people feel need attention would be well worth posting about. It only take 5 minutes (if that) to post a quick statement saying devs are doing this or that. A bit like a dev blog.

Hows about it? You know it makes sense

i sign that idea. it might eliminate sum frustration of players who think their posts bout weird things is unnoticed or not cared about

[stamenflicker]

Originally Posted by lacasner

Ohh, if I want to get a chump off my back I use AoE?

Wait, didn't you just say that these issues aren't related?

/confused

Nah, just take a group of rangers with ignite arrows. The melee opponent never even tries to get on your back to begin with.

[aohige]

Originally Posted by Ratchick

Although this may be only semi-related (if that) I feel I should comment upon the Dunes of Despair mission. It has actually got to the point, with the changes in AI, that I have become frustrated enough to have to stop playing my Ele trying to do the Dunes of Despair mission at the moment. The changes in AI mean that - in my experience, at least - it is pretty much impossible to outheal the damage in the 10 minute "defend" section. Once the seige wurms start pounding the Ghostly Hero, on top of the last waves of incoming mobs, two monks simply cannot keep up with the damage (especially not hench). The wurms no longer lose aggro and constantly attack the Ghost/platform (making the bonus damn nigh impossible because you can't leave him) and leaving a hench/hero healer simply results in dead healer, dead ghost and failed mission. Trying to get two human monks in a six person team is difficult, taking three results in it taking forever to kill anything, and you get swamped. Currently if you stay in the middle of the mission area, you are pounded by wurms constantly and if you step out of the AoE your ghost will die within a minute without healing.

I recently did this bonus with my heroes and henchies.
Yes, I found it very hard compared to before, but definitly not impossible.
You can't complete both the mission and bonus in the same run, but that's nothing new.

The biggest problem, was not Hero surviving...
I left two monk henchies at the hero, and took my entire Hero crew with me to kill the Forgotten bossess. The two henchies didn't seem to have problem keeping him alive, if flagged well. (Out of the seige wurms' aggro)
What was hard was the MONK BOSS THAT KITES. Not only is the boss a powerful monk, that can out heal most attacks.. he kites around in circle. To make it worse, he's a FORGOTTEN boss, wich very fast natural speed buffs.
Given the fact that there's a time limit, and ghost hero has to survive that time... killing him as a Warrior was.... very hard. I only suceeded because I chased him into a corner, body blocked him, while my Heroes pounded on him.

I now have Protector title in all three continents on my Warrior character, and every single mission was done with heroes/henchies. After the AI change, obviously. AI changes did make certain enemies tougher, but it's most definitly doable.

[Fay Vert]

Originally Posted by Alka

with that annoying non-relasing aggro this game is not fun anymore to me and i am sure i will not advertize this game to any of my friends from real-life

Same, I have stopped recommending it. Some people ask me what it's like and I tell them it used to be great but there is a serious bug with it at the moment and everyone is waiting for a fix, but it's taking them too long.

[Blackhawk]

Perhaps if the Dev Team turned off "Godmode" or "Invisibility" or whatever they use where they cant reproduce this and tried playing the game from a players perspective might find that things like a Monk "chasing you to the ends of the earth" are quite easy to reproduce with "minimal effort" like I just did even if I did kill him, he still chased me back to the outpost.

[Ecomancer]

Someone please FRAPS this as evidence. This happens everywhere. In Old Ascalon missions, North Shiverpeaks, Kryta, Maguma, South Shiverpeaks... Elona. The only exception seems to be Cantha. I have not noticed this behaviour in Cantha.

Whilst doing the Defend Droks forge, my henchies died so I startd running. A titan caster then chases me all the way where the boss was to the zone. When I stop it stops. If I start bashing on it starts running away. If that is intended behaviour, then all I can say is good game ANET. I grow weary of the designers saying this behaviour is non existent because they seem to be incapable of emulating it.